tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post7542663647278900314..comments2024-01-18T00:59:52.237-08:00Comments on Christos military and intelligence corner: Recurring problems of Soviet tank designChristos T.http://www.blogger.com/profile/04246906263926130737noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-71542564400306457682019-09-27T08:55:12.051-07:002019-09-27T08:55:12.051-07:00They were there, the Israelis needed the tanks. Ye...They were there, the Israelis needed the tanks. Yes, it was pretty much that simple!John in NHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03458318353334651378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-73907956298697217522018-06-07T21:17:24.644-07:002018-06-07T21:17:24.644-07:00The south africans fought Cubans in Angola during ...The south africans fought Cubans in Angola during the 80's, their main tool was what they called Ratel with an anti tank gun mounted, more or less a fast APC with recoilles gun, they beat and routed a Cuban T54 Unit. They firt felt fear to those tanks and after initial fighting they realized that the T54s werent that threat that the stats claimed them to be. There is actually stories about frontal encounters where Ratels prevailed over T54s, strange considering that Ratels where only lightly armored. So I would say the soviet tanks is inferior to the western, but more importantly the training of the crews seems to lack significantly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-48389323795920030352017-06-24T22:12:48.325-07:002017-06-24T22:12:48.325-07:00Well the 1973 War was also an Israeli victory, esp...Well the 1973 War was also an Israeli victory, especially in the tank engagements.<br /> <br />http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/2015/07/the-cias-assessment-of-yom-kippur-war.html<br />Christos T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04246906263926130737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-4889255420349394552017-02-21T08:19:16.623-08:002017-02-21T08:19:16.623-08:00Sorry, but the T-90 renaming is incorrect. It was ...Sorry, but the T-90 renaming is incorrect. It was originally to be designated the T-72BU, but the name was changed late in development due to it being almost unrecognizable from the other later T-72 variants (other than the iconic Soviet low profile of course.)<br /><br />Also something you neglect to mention is the fact that Soviet tanks (as well as foreign clones) were designed with a certain military doctrine in mind. And I'm not talking about "quantity over quality" that you have already mentioned. Soviet tanks were designed purely in the offensive role, which is quite different to tank philosophy in the west.<br /><br />Also: yes, the Soviets did emphasize quantity over quality, but that had nothing to do with the Soviet view of an individual human life. This concept along with tank design came with the offensive-minded military doctrine that the USSR had at the time. I would be happy to provide more information about how doctrine, not Soviet morals influenced tank design if anyone is interested.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-17630727993710021402016-08-21T00:03:33.997-07:002016-08-21T00:03:33.997-07:00And they creamed the Jordanians in 1967. A case o...And they creamed the Jordanians in 1967. A case of being out-fought, even if the equipment is comparable. <br /><br /> Keep in mind that in the early stages of Barbarossa in 1941, the Soviet tanks were mostly BETTER even without the T-34! More than HALF of the PanzerWaffe had main armaments of 37mm or LESS, and the Panzer I tanks which only had twin MGs were in front-line service! The Germans even pressed whatever British, French, and Polish machines that they could get to run into service, that's how desperate they were for tanks! Even when the T-34s showed up, in many cases they were badly deployed and their crews had little or no training in ANY tank, let alone how to utilize the T-34s strengths. There was even a notorious case of a T-34 being hit 23 times by a 37mm Pak 36 anti-tank gun and finally stopped by a round sticking and jamming the turret! How a tank crew could let themselves get 'pinged' 23 times by a towed (man-handled) pea-shooter and NOT successfully engage it indicates that either the crew is woefully incompetent or the tank has inherent problems in engaging targets, or both.<br /><br />At least Zhukov figured this out and had the T-34s held back until their units could be adequately trained. This got good results, both at Mtensk in October 1941 and two months later in the Moscow counter-offensive.Doug the Ex-Fat Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449770493587344595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-19222247793843368562016-08-20T23:52:39.024-07:002016-08-20T23:52:39.024-07:001) Fault is NOT having sloped armor, it's the ...1) Fault is NOT having sloped armor, it's the overall design. The Soviets designed to a certain profile and tried to make everything fit, which usually was forced and with mixed results.<br />2) Can't fault Israeli mistakes in Merkava 3 and 4. Soviet tanks were designed for their "Deep Operations" doctrine, which means that their tanks were for an offensive role, so a smaller profile is of greater worth to them than ability to hide en defilade and wait for the enemy.<br />3) An age-old debate of protection versus mobility. Works that even the more mobile Soviet tanks aren't mobile ENOUGH to escape being hit first.<br />4) Western designers screw up too. Maybe that the rounds are in the turret bustle in the Abrams, but behind a sliding blast door, and the compartment has 'blow-out' panels, show that its designers knew that a penetrating hit to where the ordnance is stored is inevitable, and designed so the tank would survive and possibly even DRIVE AWAY.<br />5) Equally trained in the Iraq-Iran war in the 80's? Baloney! The Iranians purged their military in the wake of the Islamic revolution, and substituted their willing to go to Muslim 'Heaven' and start making it with the '72 virgins' for sounds tactics and good leadership. The best tanks are no damned good if misused.<br />6. Agree about comparing the same classes of rounds. In fact, though I don't agree often with "Blacktail Defense", he criticizes the Abrams a LOT, including that it's 120mm gun wasn't necessary as the 105mm L68 STILL well defeats Soviet tank designs and a lot more 105mm rounds can be carried.<br /><br />As for the Israelis, they re-used captured Soviet-made tanks because even a crappy tank is better than NONE. They've stated that they could have swapped their tanks with their opponents and the results wouldn't have changed at all. Doctrine, experience, training, LOGISTICS, and leadership are also huge factors in military successes and/or failures, armored ground combat included. And the Israelis essentially rebuilt their captured T-55 and T-62 tanks into a "Westernized" hybrid, using (usually American) engines, main guns, their MGs (for obvious logistical reasons), and fire-control and communications systems. Or pulled off the turrets and used them as SP howitzers, CEVs, prime movers, and even armored ambulances! Comes from a long-standing necessity of having to make do with what's on hand.Doug the Ex-Fat Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449770493587344595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-40547640172181819802016-05-27T21:41:02.868-07:002016-05-27T21:41:02.868-07:00The Israelis will make do with what they can get. ...The Israelis will make do with what they can get. Of course, with their own main weapons, fire control, doctrine, logistics, and training, they achieve results their Russian-supplied opponents don't.Doug the Ex-Fat Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449770493587344595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-78018772002789777182016-05-27T21:38:54.953-07:002016-05-27T21:38:54.953-07:00The T-14 also doesn't afford the TC the abilit...The T-14 also doesn't afford the TC the ability to overwatch (ie.look out the top hatch and present a target for snipers). I predict that it will suffer tactically in action.Doug the Ex-Fat Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449770493587344595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-24425990978020836982016-04-06T06:04:24.941-07:002016-04-06T06:04:24.941-07:00But against Jordanian M48 Pattons in the 6-day-war...But against Jordanian M48 Pattons in the 6-day-war.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16646955937069498117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-75027519246540284992016-03-16T15:06:58.465-07:002016-03-16T15:06:58.465-07:00The Israelis might as well use them. They were not...The Israelis might as well use them. They were not going up against Centurions. As for western use of sloping, it is a matter of how extreme one goes in shaping the tank.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02618927302073359776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-66577458845710901512016-03-16T15:03:48.505-07:002016-03-16T15:03:48.505-07:00They were not going up against anything superior w...They were not going up against anything superior when fighting on the Israeli side.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02618927302073359776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-70321203499847528022015-12-17T00:05:23.048-08:002015-12-17T00:05:23.048-08:00Hi, nice analysis but seriously flawed in a way th...Hi, nice analysis but seriously flawed in a way that the admittedly existing flaws in the Russian tanks did not prevent western tank designers from committing the same mistakes. Let's take a look:<br />1. Sloped armor - if this eats up so much interior space, why do western tanks like the M1, Challenger 2, Leopard 2 have also sloped armor?<br />2. Gun depression - if gun depression is so important, why does the Merkava 3 and 4 have only a depression of -7<br />3. Overall size - this is more a question of philosophy. On the one side you have a smaller tank with an insignificantly smaller probability of getting hit and on the other side a bigger tank with an insignificantly lower probability of serious damage once penetrated.<br />4. Catastrophic explosion - the ammo storage might be debatable in Russian tank, but the incompetence of later western models like the Leclerc to put 18 rounds right next to the driver in the hull or the Leopard 2 to put even 27 rounds next to the driver into the hull is even more debatable.<br />5. Performance - so why is the performance record so bad? Crew efficiency! In the Iran-Iraq war Iraqi T72M outperformed Iranian Chieftains. Here equally trained forces faced each other, and the Russian product prevailed.<br />6. Number of main gun rounds - don't compare 125mm rounds to 105mm rounds. Stay in the same class. Compare 125mm to 120mm. Here we have T64 - 40; T80 - 45; T90 - 42; compared to Leopard 2 - 42; M1 - 44; Leclerc - 40<br />Conclusion: Flawed as these points mentioned in the analysis might be, they were not deemed important enough by western designers to be avoided in their designs, and they did not keep the Israelis from using captured Russian tanks.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16646955937069498117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-15453978755531345892015-12-16T00:24:20.462-08:002015-12-16T00:24:20.462-08:00When a country is fighting for its survival they h...When a country is fighting for its survival they have to use what is available. Christos T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04246906263926130737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-45591840130874118472015-12-14T17:40:48.776-08:002015-12-14T17:40:48.776-08:00I have studied soviet and western tank design for ...I have studied soviet and western tank design for more than 20 years. First, I want to agree that soviet tanks look pretty impressive on paper bad have an abysmal combat performance. What does irritate me however is the fact that the Israelis used them too. For example, Israel captured a number of T-55's, swapped their gun for a 105 mm L7 and pressed them into service. Can you explain why Israel used such an inferior design in its own ranks?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-41980915478394561812015-06-20T05:07:37.592-07:002015-06-20T05:07:37.592-07:00In practice what actually happened was that they h...In practice what actually happened was that they had to fight against western tanks that had this capability and that's why the lost.<br />The new Russian tank T-14 Armata is built according to Western standards (heavy weight, large size). Why is that?Christos T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04246906263926130737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-42073432566774846772015-06-20T00:45:19.366-07:002015-06-20T00:45:19.366-07:00Mobility.
Russian tanks were designed for lightni...Mobility.<br /><br />Russian tanks were designed for lightning attacks and encirclement movements to wreck havoc behind lines and not to sit at some hill with your great depression and wait for someone to show up, that's what are guided antitank missiles for, just look to what happened to Israeli tank forces against Hezbollah kornets, gun depression or anything else did not helped them merkava tanks. Russian tanks are light, fast and armed with guided missiles besides 125mm, they can cross most bridges and rivers and be on you behind in no time. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-21228242438904267302014-03-07T08:05:47.805-08:002014-03-07T08:05:47.805-08:00It was not about private property but about the va...It was not about private property but about the value of citizens lives. In the so called "State of workers and peasnats" Communists used workers and peasants to clear minefileds by detonation. That is what you can infer from the own words of Soviet Generals (of course they don't say it as bluntly). And by the way Communists were underrepresented in infantry units (those whose men detonate mines) and overrepresented in artillery units is those who open fire on friendly infantry to make it move.JFMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-81997847836215111232014-01-10T05:39:20.972-08:002014-01-10T05:39:20.972-08:00Ok, thanks for the response, and again great artic...Ok, thanks for the response, and again great article, dude, well researched and informative.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-65459549754798567552014-01-09T23:29:03.430-08:002014-01-09T23:29:03.430-08:00The T-90 is just a modernized T-72. They changed t...The T-90 is just a modernized T-72. They changed the name after the Gulf War showed how poor their weapon systems performed. It has all the flaws of the T-72.<br /><br />The T-80 also has the same problems of limited internal space and gun depression.<br /><br />They all look the same as they were built with the same design principles.<br />Christos T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04246906263926130737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-29475795010429884352014-01-09T11:25:32.270-08:002014-01-09T11:25:32.270-08:00Awesome article Christo, Russian tanks are truly o...Awesome article Christo, Russian tanks are truly overrated death traps, I have a question: You pointed out that the T-55, T-62, T-64, and T-72 all shared the same design principles of the T-34, which resulted in equally horrific losses for these vehicles, so what about the T-80 and T-90 tanks, do think they might also share these flaws?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3335175720102608134.post-77318151939044583662013-04-18T15:01:29.759-07:002013-04-18T15:01:29.759-07:00With a decreased emphasis on "private propert...With a decreased emphasis on "private property" (including the self) it was inevitable that the communist system would turn out a larger number of inferior, uncomfortable, death traps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com